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Paul Crowley

I have a friend who has done tarot readings for herself and others even after she became a skeptic, on roughly these grounds.

Alexis Kauffmann

This post reminds me of something I've been willing to ask you: mystic thinking like those you approached here are very similar in shape and content to artistic and poetic experience.

How would you value art and poetry in your atheist framework? "Oh, that metaphor doesn't exist, there is no logical evidence, blablabla"?

For instance, that Tarot card. There is no World Soul, ok, but your mind was stimulated by the Art in it...

What I mean is: Is it morally wrong to delight yourself with a poetic idea like "The Universe wants to give me that Ice Cream", even if you know it is not materially true?

You know, you just reached C. G. Jung in this post. Religion is not materially true but it is psychologically true... I would like to see you go a little further in this path, if you liked.

Ks's!

Rev. Bob

one piece of rational nonwoo from Ron Lippitt: when you're stuck making a decision, flip a coin. Then ask yourself how you feel about the outcome. Then make your real decision based on that.

Nurse Ingrid

I second Rev. Bob's suggestion.

The secret to the coin flipping trick, if you can manage it, is to try to figure out, *while the coin is in the air*, which way you are hoping it will land.

the chaplain

Signs from the divine sure make decisions a lot easier. Sometimes it's tough being a non-believer. ;)

Greta Christina
Is it morally wrong to delight yourself with a poetic idea like "The Universe wants to give me that Ice Cream", even if you know it is not materially true?

Interesting question.

Morally wrong? No. But I don't think it's morally wrong to believe it literally, either. I don't think religion is morally wrong, unless you're trying to legislate it, or are teaching it to children as if it were fact, or are otherwise forcing it on people. I think religion does more harm than good on the whole; but I don't think it's in and of itself immoral. I mostly just think it's mistaken.

So i guess I'd re-phrase the question as, "Is it harmful or mistaken, or likely to lead to harm or error?"

My basic answer would be "No." I don't see any harm in amusing yourself with a fun but false notion, as long as you're aware that that's what you're doing.

But I'm equivocating a little bit. Because I remember from my own woo days how easy it was to slip back and forth between saying that my beliefs were useful and beautiful metaphors, and thinking they were literal truths... mostly depending on who I was talking to, and how hard I was being pressed about my beliefs. So for myself, I try to be careful about the "useful and beautiful metaphor" thing, as it can too easily slip into literal belief.

Ebonmuse

I very much like the idea that most woo is really just roundabout ways of figuring out what you really believe or desire. It gives you permission, so to speak, to express a truth that you otherwise might have felt uncomfortable expressing to yourself. If I have to break up with my husband or my wife, it's hard if I have to do it - but if the universe tells me so, who am I to argue? It's a neat trick for motivating yourself to do things you might otherwise have avoided.

On the other hand, this trick can also be exploited to manipulate others. If I run into someone who seems to have an even better idea of what the cosmos wants of me, I'm much more likely to become a follower - even if that person doesn't necessarily have my best interests at heart.

Jon Berger

This reminds me of the great line from "The Ruling Class," in which Peter O'Toole plays a crazy English aristocrat who thinks he's God. When someone (his psychiatrist, possibly) asks him "How do you know you're God?," he responds "Because every time I pray, I find I'm talking to myself."

Raging Bee

The whole "everything happens for a reason" belief is generally unsupportable, but it does have its uses. Suppose, for example, that a habitual drug-user gets busted. If he thinks his arrest is merely a bit of bad luck, that would be a perfectly rational belief -- but it would give him little or no incentive to take any action to improve his life. On the other hand, if he were to think "There's a Higher Power who loves me and who arranged this bust to tell me to get sober," that would be rather irrational -- but it would be more likely to give him the energy and inspiration he needs to clean up his life. So in some cases, one irrational belief ("everything hapens for a reason") may be needed to counter another (addictive mindset and cravings plus lack of hope or self-respect) before rational decisions can be made.

Alexis Kauffmann

Hi again, Greta!

Thank you for the answer. I 100% agree with you. Although I like fantasy literature and movies like "The Lord of the rings", I would never accept political decisions about abortion, sexuality, science, life and death based on the writings of Bilbo Baggins.

But I have "read" Tarot (and I Ch'ing, and Astro Maps) many times and, in the process, have learned that the contemplation of non-verbal symbols (visual arts in general can be used with this purpose) may lead to a more creative mindset. Often, these practices helped me reveal useful hidden thoughts about my own Ice Cream cravings.

In summary, we can't live without Art, Poetry, fantasy and metaphor.

If religion could limit itself to this very simple and vital function, that is, provide us with a poetic view of Nature without trying to impose it as the ultimate truth, it would spare itself from many problems, atheism included.

Ks's,

AKauffann

Raging Bee

If religion could limit itself to this very simple and vital function, that is, provide us with a poetic view of Nature without trying to impose it as the ultimate truth, it would spare itself from many problems, atheism included.

Most religions (including Christianity) do this, but too many of their adherents don't have the education or insight to grasp it on that level.

Swirus

A couple of days ago, we'd just finished lunch - my girls had had boiled eggs, sliced with an kitchen gizmo egg slicer. Having finished we had some soft kiwi fruit, and while my partner Zoe was looking on the laptop on ebay for a time-delay cat feeder, I absent-mindedly chanced upon the fact that the egg slicer would also segment kiwi fruit. Unfortunately I wasn't really concentrating and managed to slice a chunk of skin off my thumb with the egg slice.

About 10 seconds of bleeding later, Zoe says "look at what this person selling the cat feeder is also selling" and it was an egg slicer. And not just any egg slicer, but a Westmark Columbus Egg slicer, exactly the same 1950s vintage model I had just cut my thumb with.

Maybe it's a very common thing on ebay? but no, of 87 egg slicers on ebay, and hundreds of thousands of items, this was the only Westmark Columbus. Google had zero hits for "Westmark Columbus".

It seems inescapable on analysis of these facts that there must be an interventionist creator power overseeing my personal destiny.

What is more in doubt is: What is (s)he trying to tell me with the egg slice gambit?

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