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Rose / Intergalactic Hussy

I'd also like to point out that its not only gay and straight. There is a spectrum of sexuality (in addition to gender). I've always seen myself as bi with a leaning towards men...but not in that trashy sorority I just want attention way.

It's hard to even try to explain it to people, some people have a hard time understanding gay, let alone bi. And some think it doesn't even exist...

Dave

Nice post. You often hear someone ask 'when did you decide to become straight?' as if that has anything to do with anything.

Nurse Ingrid

I hate "nature vs. nurture" arguments. Human behavior is complex and multifactorial, and almost any quirk you can think of is likely to have both genetic and environmental causes, all twined together. As for sexual orientation, I defy anyone to claim that either heredity or environment plays NO role.

That being said, as a bisexual there is one thing about this discussion that has always bugged me. What if there is a "gay gene" or genes...and I don't have it? Does that mean I don't get to be queer or have civil rights, because I don't "qualify?"

Like Greta said, it matters not at all what "causes" different sexual orientations. Adults have the right to engage in any sexual activity that is safe, sane, and consensual. End of story.

Ben

Just because it's genetic doesn't mean you get it from your parents. Or, well, look at it like this.

Type 1 diabetes certainly has a genetic component. It might have environmental components as well. But certainly a genetic predisposition plays a role. And, true, parents with Type 1 might be more likely to have children with Type 1. But not every person with Type 1 diabetes has parents who have it.

Couldn't homosexuality work the same way? Maybe gays and lesbians ARE no more likely to have gay or lesbian children. Even if that's true, that doesn't mean homosexuality has no genetic component.

lunalelle

I've read over the last post that I commented on, and I'm not sure whether I disagree with you, although it might have sounded like I did. I think there's serious scientific evidence that there's a genetic and environmental component, and like most things, some people are more likely to be affected by one more than the other on some occasions.

I'm seriously against the 100% essentialist view, though, just like I'm against the 100% constructivist view. I think that if people only say that we're born gay, it eliminates many people with queer identities who didn't experience it that way, and if people say we're only gay because of our environment, it's eliminating the people who knew something was different from when they were little.

I hate the whole nature vs. nurture argument. Everything seems to point to both, particularly because there's no real way to separate them.

Nurse Ingrid

The question of whether queer parents are more likely to have queer kids is an interesting one. Obviously both heredity and environment could play a role there. Has anyone done a study that compared adopted vs biological kids of queer parents? That might be illuminating.

Patience

The way you say this:
Unless [cut for length] then you have to accept that the question, "Is sexual orientation genetically determined, learned, or a combination of both -- and if a combination, how much of each, and how do they work together?"

And then go on to say that it could be environmental, they don't seem to be the same thing at all to me. Learned implies that there is teaching going on (like with religion) (active OR passive teaching), while environmental implies that it is something outside of the person that influences them biologically. At least, to me, that is how I read and understand those words. I don't think many people would agree with a "learned" stance; as the ex-gay programs show pretty well, you can't teach someone to BE contradictory to their person, you can just teach them to ACT contradictory. For clarity's sake, since you seem to argue that the current science is that it's probably a combination of genetics and enviroment, you might wish to edit a bit.

Personally, I do think it's some combination of genetics and environment. For me, it seems to be largely genetic: my dad and his younger sister are both gay, and they have a few gay cousins; there are a few gay cousins on my mom's side; I'm bisexual with a preference for women.

Greta Christina

I don't mean "learned" as in "learned consciously," Patience. Learning can happen unconsciously as well, and I don't think it does imply that there is teaching. I mean it as a shorthand for "caused by environment," which is cumbersome to say every single time.

Greta Christina

Something both Nurse Ingrid and Rose / Intergalactic Hussy said put me in mind of another point: which is that the "we're born this way, we can't help it" leaves us bisexuals out in the cold.

Look at it this way. For the sake of argument, let's pretend that sexual orientation *is* 100% genetically set at birth. (I doubt that it is, but for the sake of argument let's assume it is.) As a purely practical matter, those of us who are born bisexual *do* have some choice about which gender we get involved with. (To some extent that's true of monosexuals as well... but bisexuals can choose women or men without having themselves and their partners made miserable by the choice.)

So when gay activists push the "we can't help it" line as a primary foundation for our civil rights, it pretty much says to bisexuals, "We don't care that much about your rights. You do have a choice... so you can suck an egg."

Amii

Brava! Excellent point, and one that I will use myself. It doesn't matter a bit whether genetic or environment...or even if self determined as so many gay bashers have argued.

And just to weigh in on the debate itself, I think it's a combination of genetics and environment (but I suspect any gay gene wqould be a recessive one).

Environmentally, it seems that sexuality evolves for everyone and sometimes, that crosses over from how one has always identified oneself. Genetically, there are plenty of people that say they knew as long as they could consider it that they were gay.

When I first became sexually active, I hated porn, and distrusted any boyfriends that indulged in it. In addition, I identfied myself as strictly hetero, and only had hetero fantasies. 29 years later I still identify as hetero, though I've enjoyed lovers of the same sex, and indeed, have same sex fantasies during hetero sex.

All of our experiences are anecdotal, which is valuable to science, but only really as a jumping off point.

cl

i love the honesty. the oh-so-humble words "i don't know" receive a bad rap these days when more writers, scientists and religionists should embrace them. on a completely unrelated corollary, this is exactly how i feel about people who claim to know the age of earth one way or the other.

Franklin Veaux

"Now, this would seem to be in direct contradiction with the "Gay parents aren't any more likely to have gay kids" line. If people are born gay, doesn't that mean it's genetic, and doesn't that mean gay parents are more likely to have gay kids?"

Not necessarily. Genetics is complicated and tricksy, and genes are not always transmitted by the same people they are expressed in.

As a trivial and simplistic analogy: Male-pattern baldness is genetic. Yet a man who is bald is not more likely to have a bald son than a man who isn't--because while the gene is (usually) expressed in men, it is transmitted to the offspring by the mother, not the father. A bald man isn't more likely to have a bald son because the bald man isn't the one who gives that gene to his children.

If tere is a genetic component to sexuality, it's clearly not a simple "you have this gene, you pass it to your offspring, you and your offspring are gay" kind of deal. If it were, it'd pass out of th population in short order; people who are gay are statistically less likely to have biological offspring than people who are straight, and even a very tiny tilt in the statistical probability of bearing young is enough.

Fade

This is a thoughtful post, one of the best on this subject that I've seen. I think it's ridiculous (and barring any subsequent genetic proof, I believe I can keep thinking that way)to believe that sexual orientation is in any way genetic. As an occasional bi-sexual myself, I understand that my attraction to my own sex stems from me being open to homosexuality via the environment I was raised in. It may be lust, but its all choice. If it were to be some kind of genetic DNA, then I guess there must be one for the gay guy who only likes guys, one for the gay girl, one DNA for the guy who likes girls 1/2 the time, and guys the other. One DNA for the guy who likes girls 2/3 of the time,blah blah blah. Until you break into so many fractions that it no longer matters. I've known many many Non-Straights. My Father is gay and my son (who doesn't know I know yet) apparently is too. Do I believe this be genetic? Hell no! And believing so, even tho it may win a short-term argument as far as "choice" - in the end, as this post indicates- the genetic "answer" foreshadows many deeper future issues. I am attracted to both guys and girls. This should be of no more import than a person's preference to a certain type of fashion. And hopefully, as we move further into the 21st century, minds will adapt to a matter of simple preference with no more than a shrug.

Fade

This is a thoughtful post, one of the best on this subject that I've seen. I think it's ridiculous (and barring any subsequent genetic proof, I believe I can keep thinking that way)to believe that sexual orientation is in any way genetic. As an occasional bi-sexual myself, I understand that my attraction to my own sex stems from me being open to homosexuality via the environment I was raised in. It may be lust, but its all choice. If it were to be some kind of genetic DNA, then I guess there must be one for the gay guy who only likes guys, one for the gay girl, one DNA for the guy who likes girls 1/2 the time, and guys the other. One DNA for the guy who likes girls 2/3 of the time,blah blah blah. Until you break into so many fractions that it no longer matters. I've known many many Non-Straights. My Father is gay and my son (who doesn't know I know yet) apparently is too. Do I believe this be genetic? Hell no! And believing so, even tho it may win a short-term argument as far as "choice" - in the end, as this post indicates- the genetic "answer" foreshadows many deeper future issues. I am attracted to both guys and girls. This should be of no more import than a person's preference to a certain type of fashion. And hopefully, as we move further into the 21st century, minds will adapt to a matter of simple preference with no more than a shrug.

luke

I've always been under the assumption that whatever the root reason behind it, we are attracted to who we are attracted to - people come in all different shapes sizes genders colors and personalities - some I am initially attracted to and may pursue to see if they have the personality I look for, others dont - if you are a girl and guys don't give you that attraction, or if you are a guy and girls don't spark your interest, so frigging what?

I've always asked how homosexual relationships would bring about the demise of marriage or as some people claim our society and no one has ever been able to answer that. Ever.

Great post, and I think it captures the perfect mindset to have

J. M.

Thank you so much for writing this! I've thought this for a long time. I love science, and I think that the question of what determines sexual orientation is a fascinating question. However, I do not think it should determine whether or not same-sex marriage is allowed. As you pointed out, people think that discrimination against people of a certain skin color and people of a certain religion are both considered wrong. Even if, hypothetically, sexual orientation is caused by environment or is a choice, that does not mean it's wrong. Thanks again for writing this.

Bertha Vazquez

From a biology teacher: The "nature versus nurture" argument has long been buried. It still lingers in society just like the ridiculous "penis envy" still gets thrown around but scientists do not argue in those terms anymore. Picture yourself baking bread. The ingredients that you add will surely change the taste of your bread. However, the temperature at which you bake it will also affect the taste. The ingredients symbolize "nature" and the oven and temperature symbolize "nurture". Nobody would argue that one is more important than the other or that one does not count. homosexuality, like other traits, can be compared to this analogy. And remember, your dad can have blue eyes and you can have brown eyes so heredity is not that simple. As I science teacher, I always wonder at how people can accept science easily when it comes to blood transfusions, heart transplants, and telescopes, but will reject science if it interferes with their belief system. We have plenty of documented evidence of homosexuality in 100s of animal species. We aso know that some people experiment sexually because it is readily available. So? Where's the problem?

TikiHead

Greta,

I do not see how the genetic theory leaves bisexuals 'out in the cold.' A bisexual disposition could have a genetic component as well. Think of it as an added ability you have that other more single-gender focused people lack! ;)

(This is all what-if, I am not claiming it's so)

Arthur

Another factor ignored so often when these theories do come up is differences between male and female sexuality.

there is VERY little research being (or has been) done on female sexuality. a great deal more on male sexuality.

You can find huge collections of information on male arousal, sexual expression, preferences etc etc. very little on women. let alone lesbian/bisexual women. For a long time lesbianism and bisexuality has been ignored or down right claimed it didn't exist!

what little we DO have is pretty interesting. for example that female sexuality is more 'plastic' then male sexuality. it can and does shift over time far more then male sexuality. that alone should raise some eyebrows.

some of the current theories on homosexuality in males don't translate at all to female sexuality (such as intrauterine 'feminizing' of males due to the mothers immune response). even if we get a strong handle on all of male sexuality, all of male bisexuality, all of homosexual male sexuality....we still have half the discoveries left to go!

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