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Pseudonym

Well said, Greta.

I will point out, though, that there's nothing in your list of anger points that a liberal Christian wouldn't disagree with, with a few caveats. The one about prayer not being a cosmic shopping list is probably the biggie, but the reason why they don't like the attack on that idea from atheists is not becuase they generally disagree, but because attack is not the Liberal Christian Way(tm). Liberal Christians shun attack because of the bad history that Christianity has had with it.

Oh, and you should really get over Galileo. Really. It was pure politics. Remember, the Catholic Church had no problem with the same scientific material when Copernicus said it earlier.

I don't live in the US, so I can't really comment on the way that so-called "evangelical" Christianity operates in the political sphere, but I will say this: Atheists won't need to be angry for long.

Once upon a time in the US, anti-slavery activists were angry and obnoxious. Then it was labor unionists, universal sufferage supporters, feminists and so on.

In the 70s and 80s, it was homosexual rights activists' turn to be angry in my part of the world. Today, they're not, because there's pretty much no need to be. Yes, same-sex couples can't get married here yet, but there's no need to raise your voice about issues like that any more, because everyone knows it's just a matter of time.

Everyone needs to remember that if history is any guide, the anger doesn't need to last for long. The "New Atheism" (ugh) phase will pass, and Atheism will be mainstream. It'll be replaced by something else, equally important, and I hope then you will focus your anger into helping support that cause.

markp

Love the passion of this post, and I especially agree with your position on the middle ground fallacy-- Like if one person says 2+2=4 and the other says 2+2=6 then we should compromise and say that 2+2=5.

Shaun

Wow, Greta, now I'm angry too!

And yet I'm also encouraged and inspired.

It's a good feeling. Thank you for lighting that flame.

hoverFrog

I followed a link from FriendlyAtheist to read this and just have to say that it is absolutely brilliant. It's not much of a comment but you deserve some praise for the many things that you've said.

John Rummel

This is one of the best treatments of the atheist position I've ever read. Seriously Greta, you should clean up the profanity and submit this as an op ed to the NYT or Wash Post. This needs to be widely read!!

wjd

How I Learned To Love My Anger, in one easy step:

-read this post; felt so much better. Angrier, but better.

Thank you very much! Please keep up the good work.

CHristian Dior Buot

I love your opinion. Very smart and well researched. This things makes me angry, upset, fuming and all angryness words you can think of. This is certainly the best 'in your face' statement for all anti-atheist out there. They should shut the fuck up. Maybe there's God but who knows?

He hasn't got a common decency to exist so why bother?

Webs

Here's to hoping you make it 1000! BTW, I linked to this post back when it first came out and absolutely loved it. You did a wonderful job summing up my feelings. Please keep up the awesome work!

Webs

Here's to hoping you make it to 1000 comments!

I linked to this post on my blog when it first came out because I loved it as it did a wonderful job summing up my feelings on the issue. Keep up the great writing!

Picco

A tour de force. I like to invite to all to our Forum and discuss this important topic. Greta, thanks for this post. CT Valley Atheists

Wow. You make me proud, and you make me angry. Thank you.

The Rabbit Ambulance

I think you just gave me a bloggasm. So well said. Some rage, some fury, some fire in the belly can be such a good thing.
You sounded a little bit like Spider Jerusalem, even (and yes, that is *so* meant as a compliment).

Nicholas

I agree most sincerely at you. just recently I told some one I was an athiest and they treated it as if I had a horrible desiese and needed to be cured.

Psychodiva

I hope you don't mind - I have turned this into a meme and tagged a couple of people I know because I find it very refreshing to read about why you are angry and would like to read others' too :)

Jon Blumenfeld

Fantastic.

Doesn't matter

Greta,

What a wonderful post! I applaud you with a fierce admiration!!!

What makes me angry? That I have friends who are otherwise very educated, rational beings with a sweet disposition but actually believe and spew religious nonsense which truly doesn't make sense in any which way you look at it!

It is as if they are hypnotized beyond redemption!

Eupraxsopher

Thank you! Very well put. Very well explained. Where do I order the poster? LOL!

Sincerely,
~M

PUSSYlover

I'm angry that it's friday night & I don't have a sweet ass to rim or a pink pussy to eat!

Bala

Superb! A keen sense of atheism combined with a saneness to revolt against the Church and all forms of creationist thoughts. Keep it up. Regards, bala

Kady Newland

I could personally relate to so many of the things that you wrote about. I myself, am not atheist but i do not subscribe to any organized religious ideologies. I have read many of the Athiest press pamplets on Christianity and had some laughs about the blatant ripping off of Holiday traditions and rituals that were taken from pagan rites and rituals. I am also very angry whenever Religion is used as a platform for Government policies that effect peoples lives, especially people who do not subscribe to the same beliefs (Me). Yes there are alot of ways in which you can disprove a persons religious beliefs but really, People cling to their beliefs with so much conviction that even when you are right, you will not be heard. And really,people will only see the truth when they are ready. The sad thing is that they will probably never decide to stop saving the ones who do not believe. (which is annoying) but you have to look at them as you would an ignorant child and have some pity for they really are victims of religion, they have their deepest fears used against them every day, and are controlled by them. they will only see when they are willing or when a bad taste has been left in their mouths. I would vote for an Atheist before i would vote for a Christian, or other devout religious believer. I believe in the human spirit and the love that humans can have for one another and that is much more powerful than convictions people have about ideas, or doctrines. Sometimes you have to be the bigger, in this case more educated and caring person. Thanks for writing this.

Kady Newland

Also, It has been my conception that Atheists have more developed Moral and ethical responsibility than Christians do, and have fought more toward humanitarian causes, i think people need to understand Atheism and learn this because it does seem that they look at atheism through religious glasses when they think because you don't believe in Hell than you have no fear of it, that this must mean you are immoral because that is what drives them to be moral or charitable the fear of going to hell. I think you have a great base for educating people maybe by using moralilty and ethics the only thing "Christians" really relate to would be the "what would jesus do?" sort of stance. sorry i forgot to mention this earlier and i thought this was great. ( I stumbled upon this site)

lance

Relax and enjoy life your spending way too much time fighting a god you don't believe exists. Watch a sunset, paint a picture, play some music or........

sill

I know a priest who works in Africa, he promotes the use of condoms and has devoted his life to helping people. I know some Christians can be pretty messed up, but some of them are just really really good people. Dont judge too quickly

Ted

It's all too easy to see the pain in the world, and it's another thing to still see that pain, but also find the beauty.

winter

VERY well said. I'm an atheist, too, and I often find myself torn between wanting to fight the good fight and not wanting to hurt and piss off all my religious friends. I have all this anger and I swallow it more often than I probably should.

But at some point it's going to be "either-or".

Susan Booth

Thank you. Every single word of this is true.

clifton

Well Played!!!!

I for one am done with the "organized religion" slant
I'm not atheist but I'm close
and if there are two things I despise in this world it's pulpit pimps telling a group what to do.feel.think. and anyone on this green ball that invalidates my feeling and personal thought on life and being wrong.

More often then not it's a faction of zealot christens that point fingers and tell me I'm wrong for not being like them!

And I for one am angry and tired of their harassment!

Fin

Robert Day

Here in the UK, the Church of England has been running something they call 'The Alpha Course' for quite a while. It's been promoted as a discussion group and life class for people of all faiths and none, examining wider questions of spirituality (or so they say). It has been widely advertised: the first phase of the campaign looked at modern lifestyle trappings - designer clothes, mobile phones flatscreen tvs and so on, and asked "Is this all there is?" Valid enough question, I thought. But the second phase was much odder. The poster showed a small figure stood on top of a mountain peak, arms spread wide in rapturous appreciation of the awesome majesty of the natural world spread out in front of them. And they ran the same strapline - "Is that all there is?" "Madness!" I thought. "Isn't that enough for anybody?"

Christina

I want to start this off saying that I am not part of a religion. I feel that I am a less-bias observer of these events.

I am sorry to hear how religion has affected you negatively, but have you observed how religion affects some people positively?

I like your web page, it might open the eyes of someone. But, I'm afraid of how this hatred might be affecting you.

It doesn't matter what belief system a person holds- their narrow mindedness is unrelated. (in my opinion) You complain about people being forced to say prayer in the army, and others complain about prayer being forbidden in schools. You complained about the nursing home asking your dad if he was Baptist or a Catholic- but you were in their shoes you might forget the impact of religion completely.

People all live in their own little bubble. I know I live in mine. Science doesn't claim to know everything- and religion doesn't claim to tell everything. Each make allowances for errors- and each make their errors.

Anyways- that is what I wanted to say. Listen, or don't It is up to you.

Jessica

Bravo!
Brilliant post! And thank you for saying so many things that I've wanted to say, only much more eloquently than I'd be able to. You should really consider writing a book on this subject.

Kat

Well said. KUDOS!

Adam

Excellent piece. I'm glad to see that thought has not been extinguished by fear. Well done.

Kelly B

Whether I agree or disagree really doesn't matter. What does matter is that the atheists, agnostics, and skeptics of the world are finally starting to speak out and band together.

It's unfortunate that there are so many responses to your post that just don't get it.

Be angry, as angry as you want.

Jake Atkisson

The only thing left for me to add to that spectacular synopsis is the affirmation of my being an angry atheist for precisely those reasons as well.

Well wrote, well said...well done all around.

so many lies i cant even count them

Liandriel

Thank you for putting this into words. I wish I could refer my fundamentalist Christian parents to this, by way of explanation. Unfortunately, I know that they would dismiss it out-of-hand. And that is, I think, sad.

Peter

I am late into this debate. Your was a great post. What makes me really angry about christians is that so many of them enjoy being ignorant; they don't have to think for themselves.

Ashley

Hi Greta,

I followed a link from LiveJournal to read your blog, and I think it is exceptionally eloquent, articulate, and well-written. I agree with most of the points you've made in this post, most notably our position in the universe and the issue or right and wrong in atheists. I just want to say thanks for voicing an opinion with which most atheists will probably completely agree.

Ashley

Hi Greta,

I followed a link from LiveJournal to read your blog, and I think it is exceptionally eloquent, articulate, and well-written. I agree with most of the points you've made in this post, most notably our position in the universe and the issue or right and wrong in atheists. I just want to say thanks for voicing an opinion with which most atheists will probably completely agree.

Sean

Excellent rant! I agree with you on so many of these points. Funny how Christians went from being oppressed in 0 BC to oppressors who made it illegal to practice non-Christian religion when Constantine converted a few generations later. But, these Christians still claim to be persecuted.

LBC

Excellent post. Thank you.

Shev

I realize that this post was written some time ago and that you've had a lot of comments on it. I just want to say thank you.

lynne

Just wanted to say this is a wonderful posting.

-=Neo=-

You Greta, are a genius!

My personal stance on other people is this: I don't care if you are black/white/yellow/green, gay/straight/bi, male/female - that doesn't matter to me. But if you stand in the street yelling "YOU ARE A SINNER! YOU MUST BELIEVE!" at me, then we've got a problem...

Incidentally, check out George Hrab's Geologic Podcast (http://www.geologicpodcast.com/) - apart from being a damn funny show in it's own right, he does a great segment called "Religious Moron of the Week"!

redfish

No, whats sad is that you try to marshall up a lot of points that were made for political purposes and take them as your own personal God's truth.

Thats why when atheists are ever called fundamentalist at all, because they recite a lot of things which are slights on the truth, but they speak them as if they're true.

I am not a religious person at all, but the reason there is a fight over culture and values in the country, is because there are two sides to this.

For example, I could respond to many of the issues you brought up, but maybe this one will be instructional:

Galileo was not arrested for his scientific beliefs. Many people inside the Church actually agreed with Galileo, but the Church officially maintained their position, because--being supportive of the sciences themselves--they were defending Aristotle's view. The Church put out a paper saying that even if Galileo's theory was right it would not invalidate religious teachings, which were interpretive. Galileo got mad and argued they would invalidate religious teachings. The Church urged Galileo to withdraw his claim to be able to make theological statements. Galileo published a book where he portrayed the Church's position being taken up by a character named "Simplicitus" which he sought to make a fool of. Galileo continued to refuse to rescind his challenge to the Church on theological grounds. The Papacy, which at that time, had political sovereignty over Rome, which was part of the Papal States, put him under house arrest. By this point, after all of Galileo's arrogance, the Church did want him to withdraw his scientific position also.

Read any lengthy account of Galileo's trial.

The reason most people don't know this, is because the political fight wasn't necessarily started by religious people. 100 or so years ago, a lot of intellectuals rebelled against Victorian society and tried to overturn everything; art, religion, philosophy, etc, which they viewed as bourgeois and supporting capitalists (yes, it was straightly Marxist, Freudian).

This is a political fight on both sides, where a lot of stupid and ignorant things are said all around.

A lot of your outrage, is based on your belief in one side of the argument, and you should calm down, because things are more complex than one side is destroying the world.

Molly

Great work, Greta!! Very nice, also you can find and downloud more interasting and usefull information from http://loadingvault.com of course if you are using rapidshare premium account.

warhun

Thank you for giving voice to my very thoughts. I wish I had such clarity of thought at your tender age. Hell, I wish I had that now. Try to (briefly) disengage once in awhile though. For your health. Then get back to it. I live in Texas. I have raised one son to know reality and managed to help one other person make the transition to rational thought. We each must strive to influence two. My job here is done.

Stephanie

I like the post, I feel like it's really close to my own feelings but it's hard for me to read because these things make me really angry and I feel helpless. Like creationism being taught in school, a couple being turned down when they wanted an adoption because they didn't have a religion, and the government being run by Christians when this is not a theocracy. The fact that it seems like we're going backwards is ridiculous to me. There is no reason for gay people not to be able to marry other than a religious one and it's stupid that that is the deciding factor. I don't like that I have to go home and deal with my parents saying things like "I'll pray for you." "Pray to god for it." And other things with religious connotation and not be able to say anything because they would not listen to me/never talk to me again and I'm not yet 20 and in college. I don't like that this pushes me pretty far away from them and that it makes me not want to go home longer than two weeks. I don't like people who are religious that believe that people would have no morals without religion. I don't like when religions assumes that people are "born bad" whether they realize that they do it or not. I don't like feeling helpless and trapped in a corner because of religion. And I really don't like that I grew up thinking sex was wrong and so was any sexual pleasure and now I have to deal with a lot of issues because of it; that is the worst part.

Stephanie

I like the post, I feel like it's really close to my own feelings but it's hard for me to read because these things make me really angry and I feel helpless. Like creationism being taught in school, a couple being turned down when they wanted an adoption because they didn't have a religion, and the government being run by Christians when this is not a theocracy. The fact that it seems like we're going backwards is ridiculous to me. There is no reason for gay people not to be able to marry other than a religious one and it's stupid that that is the deciding factor. I don't like that I have to go home and deal with my parents saying things like "I'll pray for you." "Pray to god for it." And other things with religious connotation and not be able to say anything because they would not listen to me/never talk to me again and I'm not yet 20 and in college. I don't like that this pushes me pretty far away from them and that it makes me not want to go home longer than two weeks. I don't like people who are religious that believe that people would have no morals without religion. I don't like when religions assumes that people are "born bad" whether they realize that they do it or not. I don't like feeling helpless and trapped in a corner because of religion. And I really don't like that I grew up thinking sex was wrong and so was any sexual pleasure and now I have to deal with a lot of issues because of it; that is the worst part.

Pazma

Thank you, I really enjoyed that. You're a very talented writer, I could feel your anger as I read.

Oh, and I hope your marriage issues out for ya sometime, good luck.

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