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C. L. Hanson

So funny -- I guess great minds think alike? I just wrote a post the other day making the same comparison between gay visibility and atheist visibility:

http://lfab-uvm.blogspot.com/2007/09/my-passionate-secularism.html

I think one reason this idea is on the wind is because some of the new atheists not only want to be confrontational themselves, but go beyond that to suggest that less-confrontational atheists are wishy-washy and/or lack integrity. The natural response is what I wrote in the comments of my post:

Not only is that unnecessarily divisive, but it's a crappy division of labor. Different approaches will have different effects on different people. So I'd rather tell everybody to be out about your atheism, and be yourself -- play to your particular strengths.

Tim

Great post, great thoughts - this puts that issue to rest for me, at least. Will be interested to see what PZ thinks ;-)


-Tim

Steve Caldwell

The same "good cop/bad cop" activist dynamic was illustrated in the movie "Iron Jawed Angels."

"Iron Jawed Angels" tells the story of political activists Alice Paul and Lucy Burns and their work in the American feminist movements to grant women the right to vote.

Alice Paul and Lucy Burns were the radicals in this story. Carrie Chapman Catt represents the accomodating viewpoint which was very dismissive of Alice and Lucy.

However, Alice Paul, Lucy Burns, and others who were willing to be arrested, imprisoned, and undergo hunger strikes created the political climate where it seemed reasonable for President Wilson to meet with Carrie Chapman Catt and support women's suffrage.

The non-confrontational approach alone had been tried for years without success. But the confrontational combined with non-confrontational resulted in women's suffrage.

Greta Christina

"some of the new atheists not only want to be confrontational themselves, but go beyond that to suggest that less-confrontational atheists are wishy-washy and/or lack integrity."

And vice versa. Less-confrontational atheists not only want to be less-confrontational themselves, but want the more confrontational ones to knock it off and stop making people mad.

J. J. Ramsey

The catch I see is that this isn't *just* about confrontation. It is one thing to say, and to say loud and proudly, that religious beliefs are wrong. That is just speaking the truth loudly. It is a whole other matter to misrepresent what theists are like. Implying vaguely that theists have some mental defect--which is what calling them delusional does--is dishonest. To exaggerate the degree to which religion leads to conflict, e.g. claiming that it was an explicit cause of violence in Northern Ireland (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=91555), is at best ill-informed. To make broad generalizations about faith without taking how believers actually use the term is intellectually lazy, and offers a gimme to the opposition (http://ship-of-fools.com/Features/2006/dawkins.html).

IMHO, much of the meanness of the New Atheists comes from distorting the other side to make it appear worse than it is, but if the cause is really worthy, shouldn't we be able to do without it?

J. J. Ramsey

Clarification:

"IMHO, much of the meanness of the New Atheists comes from distorting the other side to make it appear worse than it is, but if the cause is really worthy, shouldn't we be able to do without it?"

"It" here is the distortion.

Also, the automatic hot-linking left an extra right parenthesis on the URL. :(

BlueRhonda

Excellent post! I've been hearing so many discussions about this for years and years ...

salient

Great post, Greta.

It strikes me that the Religious Wrong in America is focussed, amongst its other perfidies, on undoing the gains made by gay rights activists. I agree with you that various styles of atheistic activism are necessary to break the stranglehold that religion has on logic and moralistics.

JJ Ramsey "Implying vaguely that theists have some mental defect--which is what calling them delusional does--is dishonest."

I take it that you are referring to Dawkins' comments. I have just bought the book, so I don't know exactly what he said yet.

I took him to be saying that the concept that a supernatural being exists is itself a delusional concept, and for an individual to hold such a belief would be a sign of a mental-disorder delusion if the belief differed from mainstream beliefs.

When such unsubstantiated, credulity-straining beliefs are inculcated into children and society, then those mainstream delusional beliefs do not necessarily indicate mental disorders in their adherents. They *do* indicate varying degrees of divorce from reality and logic, though.

I agree with the vocal atheists that it is time to stop being polite about tax-exempt stupidity.

Mad goat lady

Hey I am all for the circle, the holding of hands and the singing of Kumbaya! :)

Angie

Excellent post, Greta. Those either/or arguments are often misleading.

It's odd that we forget that we don't necessarily have to choose a side. As you point out - the confrontational and the diplomatic need each other. Each camp is relatively ineffective on their own. The confrontational raise the awareness and the diplomatic get policies/legislation implemented.

Thanks for such a rational and thoughtful blog, Greta.

Sebatinsky

J. J. Ramsey:

I think that Andy, on the forum you linked, is missing something important.

I have a friend who lived in Ireland for some time, and he was quite clear that the folks there divide themselves by religion. Regardless of what YOU may think the cause is, to them, it is a religious divide.

How can you claim that their opinions of the cause are less important than your own?

NewEnglandBob

This is not about confrontation versus compromise. You missed what is going on.

This is about people like Chris Mooney who say the "New Atheists" are doing damage and causing the problem of Americans being unscientific or anti-science. There is no evidence of this at all and to the contrary, there is evidence that confrontational atheists ARE making a lot of headway.

I think nearly everything that J.J. Ramsey said is wrong. Norther Ireland was about religion. Religion DOES lead to conflict - just look at the 9/11 terrorists. There is no 'meanness' in what the New Atheists say, it is usually critical thought that is logical and reasonable.

It is incredibly ignorant and arrogant of salient to say:

"I have just bought the book, so I don't know exactly what he said yet.

I took him to be saying that..."

Go read the book first, then make a comment.

The accommodationists tremble in the shadow of the majority of theists and their fear causes them think illogically. What they have proposed (see "Unscientific America") is not even close to a solution because they do not even come close to seeing the real problem.

nina

Absolutely agree with this - you have to have a multi-prongd approach not only to reach the segmented "ally" market

but also the outrageous get the media coverage to raise awareness and public discussion and the moderates work from within and on the sidelines


as the gay movement has learned, people who know that they know a gay person does a lot to reduce homophobia - but the lesson now has been that the other person also needs to know that rights, marriage are important to us

It's not enough to be tolerated, we have to be seen as people - with the same emotions, dreams and goals as anyone else.

Atheists have been quiet for too long - although, the approach there in the US and Canada is the opposite of the queer community

gays and lesbians need to ensure that they are included in existing law

whereas atheists are trying to enforce existing law vis a vis separation of church and state - it's religion that's crept into the public square where it had no legal place to be.


nina

http://ntrygg.wordpress.com

Sensemaker

I have read/seen a lot of Dawkins material. I honestly do not think he is particularly confrontational. He speaks out, he is honest but he is not particularly rude or sarcastic.

The way most Western politicians talk about one another is much more controntational than Dawkins' words about religion. Dawkins religious opponents on the other hand says that it is just if he suffers forever and that will totally happen because our invisible super-daddy will totally make it happen. (That was a very mocking choice of words, certainly not something Dawkins would use.) Well, that is about as disrespectful as you could possibly be...

Sensemaker

J.Wesley

1. There's a significant difference between allowing some group equality and restricting the freedoms of another. The first really doesn't cost anyone anything.

2. You cannot seriously think that you can insult an ideology in isolation from those you may wish to educate. That is why both strategies are not practically compatible.

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