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skepticscott

@ Robert B

Well, since the post is titled "Atheism, Sexism and Blowing up the Internet", it's only natural to assume that it IS about atheism, though why is still a mystery.

As far as atheists are concerned, it's hard to be sure why this is such an angstfest. There are males out there who have trouble comprehending a woman's perspective on things sexual, or who are downright sexist and misogynistic. And some of those males happen to be atheists. Is this really a revelation to anyone with working gray matter?

I can only surmise that some people had this hidden delusion that atheist males were somehow more enlightened in such matters, and are now seeking an outlet for their profound disillusionment at discovering that atheist males are as prone to sexist attitudes as any other of their gender.

But unless there's an argument here that sexist attitudes are significantly MORE prevalent among atheists, I'm still not seeing the issue here. Not that sexism should ever be dismissed or celebrated, but if women only chose to associate themselves with groups devoid of sexist members, they wouldn't get out much

Africangenesis

@DFS,

I will give you search terms in case there may be a limit on links in posts:

obesity monitor
obesity tax
obesity healthcare premium
casey bullying video
obesity push away from the table

Keep in mind that one can be healthy and obese, just as one can be healthy and homosexual. The health associations are just statistical, and as to your point, the statistical association is greater with homosexuality, yes probably because of AIDs, STDs and high risk behaviors.

Robert B

@ skepticscott

No, nobody is surprised, except those who thought better of Richard Dawkins in particular. The point is not that this is surprising, unusual, or exceptional, the point is that it's wrong and we should cut it the frak out. I have heard anecdotal claims that sexism is, in fact, significantly more prevalent among atheists, but it doesn't really matter whether that's true or not. As you say, the problem is everywhere, so the right question is, why isn't every community talking about this?

DFS

@ Africangenesis

Homosexual orientation, which is what gay reparative therapy seeks to cure,is not the cause of any of the health consequences you mention. Unprotected sex is. As I mentioned, lesbians, who are homosexuals, have very low transmission rates for STDs

Heterosexuals also contract STDs, and in Africa, heterosexual sex is the primary transmission method for HIV/AIDS. So again, your analogy between obesity and homosexuality is faulty.

Africangenesis

@DFS,

Let's restrict it to male homosexuals then, since lesbianism seems to be different in character and likely to have a different genetic and environmental basis.

The obese contract STDs too, but apparently the male homosexuals contract more. It would be a surprise if some of the genetic basis for homosexual orientation doesn't also contribute to the riskier sexual practice.

However, I don't favor gay reparative therapy anymore than I favor obesity reparative therapy, unless the participants want it for themselves.

James

I am SO sick of all the bullshit about this, and this blog perpetuates it.

Dawkins' actual comments, in context, pointed out a major valid issue that many women don't want to admit, and that's when they perpetuate the idea of "rape culture" and "male privilege" they're attacking & alienating men as a whole & perpetuating bigotry while trying to shut US up in service of their own agenda. Dawkins' comments were made to female Muslim bloggers who DO live in a rape culture and he was pointing out the absurdity of comparing rude/inappropriate/uncomfortable sexist behavior to ACTUAL rape. His words, while poorly chosen, were accurate in many ways and the huge backlash has come from some very angry women who feel the need to promote a culture of victimhood blaming men, ALL men, for all ills.

I've spoken to a number of people about this across multiple sites where it's being debated and have been HAMMERED by angry close minded women who're quick to blame and absolutely unwilling to look at their own behavior & how their damaging their own cause, not by failing to "shut up" but by insisting on framing the entire world as one where men are evil. Look to yourselves and your own negativity & bigotry before you attack us, as at this point many of us who agree with the substance of your message in general about the negativity of much male behavior towards women are so turned off by the hateful presentation of it, with its concurrent demands that men be silent and have to voice except to apologize for being born male, are at the point of giving up trying to work with people who obviously disdain us so much simply for being of the opposite gender.

kagerato

Yes, yes James. Of course. When women complain about the mistreatment they receive, it's men who are the victims. Fascinating how that works.

You are part of the problem. Dismissing people instead of listening to them is precisely why nothing changes.

Hundreds of people have made the exact same errors you did in that post already.

1.) It's not legitimate to dismiss someone on the basis of greater harm to someone or something else. It never has been, it never will be. That's called shutting down discussion and ignoring the problem.

2.) Few have actually blamed all men anywhere for anything. The fact that you read it that way is your own bias. A phrase like "potential rapist", for instance, is not and wasn't ever intended to be read as "actual rapist", "probable rapist", or "rapist devil of the highest order". It's a hypothetical, not a judgment of a particular person. That so many individuals take it personally is astounding. It's as though I told you a story where, for sake of some later argument, I cast you as a character that had robbed a bank. Your response is then to interrupt the story with "I'M NO BANK ROBBER! YOU LIE!".

That was never the point, of course. It was all for the sake of example and demonstration only. It's not an insult, nor an accusation, and certainly not equivalent to being charged with a crime. If you actually want to have a discussion with someone, you need to read what they say in good faith instead of taking the least favorable and most offensive reading at first glance.

3.) The actual personal attacks need to stop. When probably somewhere near fifty percent of the comments in the threads on this topic have devolved into personal attacks, clearly there is a problem. People disagreeing with you are not a group of "angry close-minded women" who "insist [on] framing men [as] evil". That's a personal attack and accomplishes nothing except debasing your own position.

I freely admit the attacks have come from every direction and many types of people in these threads. It's not at all unusual on the internet for that to be the case, especially on forums that are not strictly moderated. People have a terrible bias to respond to affronts of any kind with insults. That's beyond unproductive; it's counter-productive.

The uncharitable readings I mentioned, though, have exacerbated that atmosphere greatly. One should assume that a statement which can be interpreted benignly is benign until proven otherwise. Many, many individuals have failed to do that (here and elsewhere).

Crystal Ball

There is no point in arguing with Greta, she has all the answers. Why waste your time on here ? In fact DON'T waste your time on here, remember you have no soul so once your dead your dead. So don't waste your time on here, get out and look at everything because one day you won't exist and neither will Greta and that's how she likes it so thankyou goodbye and don't argue. It's childish to think anything else. Greta is more mature and she's a lesbian which is more interesting and more sophisticated than being a humpetty hetro (every body should try lesbianism, it really does make you very happy )
You can have the whole lifestyle --non nuclear---vegetarian---atheist----lots of rude pictures on your wall----live in a house with three cats and a pink budgie.

Chyrch

Honestly, I'm entirely sick of people going on about "male privilege", or worse yet "WHITE Male privilege".

I'm 25, and grew up in a Canadian city where I (a Caucasian) am a minority. I've experienced racism and sexism. I've watched as people bash Caucasians or Men all they want, and nothing can be said about it. Yet any comment in the opposite direction is immediately demonized. Someone can say they were passed up for a job because they're Black, and everyone just nods their head. If a White person says they were passed up for a job because they're White, they get ridiculed and demeaned.

You never wonder why Women speaking about equality almost always choose Feminism to discuss? It's because a large motivator for them is self-justification. Actual equality takes a backseat to their own pride.

I've grown up with people saying I have some special privilege I've never experienced. My few substantial accomplishments get undermined by people claiming that they were easier for me.

So forgive me if I get a little pissed off when I hear talks by unqualified bloggers saying we need to do more about feminism. Equality would be great, but it sure as hell isn't going to be achieved until we can admit that Woman can be just as narcissistic as Men.

Robert B

@ Chyrch:

I think your argument falls apart at the end there a little bit. You say that Greta is unqualified to talk about sexism - at least, I assume she's one of the bloggers you're referring to - but degreed experts in sexism and racism talk about the privilege of dominant groups all the time, way more than Greta does. And you admit that gender equality hasn't been achieved yet - in other words, that women are still generally treated as inferior to men such as you and I - which seems to undercut your claim that you've never experienced male privilege.

Chyrch

@Robert B

"You say that Greta is unqualified to talk about sexism - at least, I assume she's one of the bloggers you're referring to"

Don't make assumptions. We should have social psychologists speaking on these issues, not people who are simply popular on the blog scene. And I'm not suggesting that majority privilege shouldn't be mentioned, but it shouldn't be attacked either. Equality should be discussed on it's own merits.

"And you admit that gender equality hasn't been achieved yet"

Why would that undercut my statement of never experiencing privilege? I'm not blind to the social events occurring to others. I think there's more to the situation than people seem to think.

I just expect equality to be the main focus point in a discussion about ... equality. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Robert B

@Chyrch

If women are still treated unequally, as inferiors... then haven't you lived with the privilege of not being treated as an inferior? Are you saying you've lived your whole life in a misogynist society and never met a misogynist?

How do you achieve equality without attacking the dominant group's privilege? For that matter, how does 'Honestly, I'm entirely sick of people going on about "male privilege"' count as 'not suggesting that majority privilege shouldn't be mentioned'? That's exactly what you're suggesting.

I'm getting really tired of people not admitting that they meant the unambiguous meanings of the things they said, which is what you're doing here. There's no argument against you that you can't claim is a strawman. I think it's a deliberate derailing strategy.

Mike Hunt

Thr y r, Bb. 'm ctll n th thr thrd r ddn't y knw ? nyw, Bb, lk skd nn vr n th thr thrd, wh r y wstng yr tm pstng brng cmmnts n lsbn ld's blg ? Bb's dn't d tht, th ct dwn trs nd kll bsts t mk cw p. Th rsc dmsls n dstrss ( nt lsbns n dstrss ) frm brnng bldngs nd mk thr wn frntr frm hnks f k ( nt crng bt crbn ftprnts ) Bb, Bb, b yrslf nd lv Grt t hr bhmn drknss.

Greta Christina

Mike Hunt has been banned from this blog for persistent trolling (mostly on another thread).

Chyrch

@Robert B

You're being deliberately argumentative now. Stop nitpicking and at least make an attempt to see another person's point of view. I really shouldn't have to dumb this down any further.

You're using blanket generalizations that simply don't apply to everyone, which is what equality is supposed to be about. Yes, most women are treated as inferiors in most places, but that doesn't mean all. Just as most men are treated as superiors in most places, but that doesn't mean all. Some women in some places are treated as superiors, and some men in some places are treated as inferiors.

By attacking male privilege in general, it encourages the notion that all men have this privilege. That simply isn't the case, and only makes things worse for those men living in areas where they don't have this privilege.

And I don't care if you don't understand how a discussion about equality can occur without attacking the dominant group. Equality should be discussed for the sake of equality, not for pulling down one group to meet the group you're most passionate about. There are more than two groups of people in this world, and equality should include them all.

Scott Hill

The Golden Rule is the tool rational people use to determine the morality of our actions. "How would I feel if that happened to me?" It's a good tool, and serves us well in most cases. We see the problems when other criteria are used instead. Among the poor alternatives are scripture or tradition, etc.

But the Golden Rule is NOT directly helpful in this case. Because as males, when we ask ourselves "Would I feel offended if someone offered a casual complement of my physical attributes?", the answer is almost always No.

I'm talking in normal setting, amongst adults. Locked in a violent prison is NOT a normal setting, and would be handled differently. No other similar situations occur to me. But in a normal setting on the street, on the job, on campus...if someone told me 'you got a nice ass', the response of any man wouldn't be anything other than amusement and perhaps feeling a little flattered. When men apply the Golden Rule here, the answer is "I would not be offended if someone treated me this way."

In fact, it leads us to opposite conclusions. "I would feel amused or flattered if I received this type of comment." And also, "Having offered such a complement, I would not enjoy being chastened -- those women are failing to apply the Golden Rule in their response."

So what is being asked here id for men to ignore the Golden Rule, and instead, take it as given that the behavior is bad, without further evaluation. Rationalists are not good at that.

Angelika

ohdear/ohmy/oy - may i/please let me thank you so much/beyond words for your sex-positive, pro-you-name-it reasoning Greta.

methinks/my-2-cents : what struck me most with soc. EG was the/an inherent sex-negative/bigot/double-standard-person etc. "attitude reflected by" (as presented by Rebecca).
so my initial and intuitive re-/action was "duh. huge red flag/s." end of story.

ot ?! - indeedly, the subsequent "webz-implosion" caught me - (stupid, naive, sex-positive, queer, freethinking etc.)-me by surprise and i did dedicate some time to actually read loads of negative-you-name-it-comments (for self-reflection e.a.)

and not only in the english-speaking-webz.
even on german scienceblogs.de/Diax's Rake - i found verbalized mega-giga-toxic-BS ... beyond my (free-)thinking-self and anything i ever imagined to see/read/reflected by
"that community".
my conclusions ?
taken/made.

un/fortunately i no longer live in the usa - otherwise i would be looking forward to hearing/seeing you speak Greta ;)
ergo i will continue to read your blog and the "food for thought" you give and inspire in me.
thank you.

Angelika

p.s. @Ebonmuse - i enjoy your comment.

e.a. who muse "this way" - since research here is rare, i found e.g. this (may come handy in an "informed discussion ;) :

> Rethinking Sexism: A Daughter-Father Team Examines How Society Maintains the Status Quo <

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091112151434.htm

so both, men and women ...

(as an atheist, skeptic etc. i no longer deal with people who want to "prove" whatever anti-f-isms.)

Lizardo

But the question is, what's the threat on that elevator? That you're going to have sex? Why the fear of sex in the first place?

DSimon

Lizardo, the fear is of possible stalking and sexual assault.

Reagan

You know, I personally don't agree with sex or 'getting laid' because I think it's not only a waste of time that deforms a person, but also a form of authority. It isn't that I hate men, but they are the primary oppressors, and I think you ought to treat them diplomatically rather than romantically. Like fellow citizens. I think women should stand alone, forever, and not obsess over sex and love. It's just not worth it and your abilities too great to be reduced to something so worthless. All that attention could be given to fighting sexism and the like. Education, advancement, etc. You're just facilitating oppression when you defend/cling to love&sex. That's one of the gateways that let sexism leak through. And I think the easiest way to eliminate sexism, is get rid of the causes. Like battling an infection, and the infection being those two.

And people tell me how everyone needs love. I disagree. I think being humane and caring for living things is love, and it doesn't have to be as selfish as someone wanting love from someone else. Why help one, when you can help a hundred? An entire society with all your skills?

I'm a little radical, but I really don't see another effective permanent solution that'll speed up the end of sexism. And this has been suggested and practiced already, but I'll say it anyway. I'll just give p.c. the finger and say that, and I firmly believe in this, femininity should go *insert vulgar term here*. Really, it's the whole problem. And I'm not being a hateful misogynist, I'm just saying, this could work. Because not only are masculine traits the ones that help people survive, and are actually superior and incomparable to feminine ones,. they're also not sexualized. And all the greats in the world weren't exactly attractive bombshells, they were just regular folks who had remarkable ideas. Just goes to show you that people need to be selfless with their heads screwed on tight, and forget beauty altogether. If it makes men and women really pissed, well so be it. I think they should be giving the world their all, not prancing around with romance.

keysaar

@Reagan. I agree mate. I really don't think people should give a hoot whether guys, or girls for that matter, want to have sex. Hasn't it ruined all the matter in people's heads enough? That's all females seem to be told to focus on, and I've had it up to here. Not all of em can resist stupidity. Really. Just stop doing the nasty and do something productive. Like reading? Come on, there's got to be more intellectual activities and aspirations you've got a mind for.

Sexism in atheism? That's a contradiction if I ever recognized one. Sexism is prevalent in religion, so wouldn't atheism be the first leader in rebelling against it? Instead of being just as much of a cobnut as the religious?

And as for the Cyrch, I don't agree with him, but I don't think that you should hurl sexist claims to get even either, if that's even the case. @Robert B put it very eloquently. No matter what they say,you've got to chose what's moral and not stoop to their (male/female)level. And that goes for men too, don't stoop! I agree that women can be sexist, but I think it's more of a revenge tactic considering all they've had to endure since the beginning of time. That doesn't make it right, and I'm not undermining any insult, but you have to see where it's coming from, and what's causing it. And obviously, you have to attack the superior class, there's no going around that. But you have to do it nicely, without possibly killing them.

I seriously pissed myself when Cyrch said that men aren't treated as superiors everywhere. Of course they aren't! Males don't have privilege! No way does/has the majority of the world believed such nonsense. Just let me know of an entire society/state that shares that belief, that men aren't superior. I'm not talking of specific jobs, I'm talking about a general belief. And sexism is still happening, that's what's relevant. When you take history into account, it's not the same case for men. Men have been superior, but women haven't. There's an imbalance.

And I think any logical person would know that all men aren't evil. They aren't all rapists, sexist chauvinist pigs, people who undress you with their eyes, really want to just ! you. Alright, the last two don't really count, or do they, that's debatable. Maybe we should all be real careful and say 'the vast majority' when it comes to sexism. I think it's meant as a warning, though. If you say 'all' everyone's aware that this code of conduct is wrong.

Anyway, we've got loads of good men here. I think it's what they're allowed to do that they have a problem with. Unjustified privilege. And that should be attacked. Equality is about letting everyone have that privilege. Very few males,if any, don't have this exclusive privilege. The fact that they're still valued more and are considered to have more potential than people who haven't even been given a chance, weren't even allowed to learn, let alone university entrance? That's a bit wrong, ain't it?

Charlie DX9

Elevator Guy didn't "proposition" Rebecca Watson. Anybody with a high enough IQ can easily see that. Yes, there are creepy guys who ask women for blowjobs on the street but guys that sit through lectures on objectification know that women don't respond warmly to cold propositions. (And even the men who ask ladies for blowjobs know that what they are doing isn't going to get them anywhere)

There is a slight chance that maybe he was sort of hoping/wishing/ crossing his fingers that something passionate would arise during that coffee conversation in an Irish Hotel across the Atlantic. But that's not even close to a "cold proposition".

Matt Fawking-myers

lemme give you a little insight into a little thing called "equality", ladies.

if a woman asked a man to coffee in an evelator, here's what would happen...he'd say yes or no.

the. end.

(in other words, either get over yourselves and shut the hell up about such pathetically trivial first-world white girl "problems" as being asked on a date, or we as men have to start getting laughably hysterical over silly crap like this. so...what's it gonna be, girls?)

Paul

I would like to explain what people refer to as “The Gospel” or “Good News”. In this explanation, I will discuss God’s grace, which unfortunately so many people do not understand or have never been clearly explained.

Unfortunately, many people attend a Christian church regularly (or attended one in the past) but have never been clearly taught what the Bible stresses as the most important decision that one could ever make. It is only in making this decision that one actually becomes one of God’s children and is “saved” from His eternal judgment. This decision deals with what is referred to as “The Gospel”. If you have never heard “The Gospel” before, here it is. Around 33 AD, Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate, paid the price for every single person’s sin in history by dying the death of crucifixion at the hands of the Romans. He willingly died for every person’s sin that has ever lived and every will live. That includes both you and me. He willing died a death that we deserve for our moral failures in life. Jesus was brutally beaten, whipped, mocked, spit upon, nailed to a wooden cross, and then died. Three days later, He rose from the dead, as He foretold His disciples (group of followers). Jesus then ascended into heaven forty days later. He currently lives with God, His father, in heaven today. During Old Testament times (times prior to the birth of Jesus Christ – B.C.), people had a keen awareness of their moral guilt, as any honest person still does today. I know that I have wronged many people and have felt a deep-seated guilt within many areas of my life. Many people during Old Testament times sacrificed animals to God as a form of limited atonement for their immoral actions. God often accepted these sacrifices, but only in a temporary and limited way. Over time, God changed this extremely limited form of atonement, as He had planned from the very beginning of time. Moreover, God sent His one and only son Jesus Christ down to the Earth. Since Jesus was both sinless and blameless, He willingly died on the cross as an unlimited atonement. It was in God’s will for His son to die in this way. This unlimited atonement is available to any person who whole-heartedly repents of their sins (moral failures) and then asks God to personally apply Jesus’ undeserved death and resurrection as a payment for their sins. It is imperative here that one believes the crucifixion of Jesus Christ was ultimately an act of God’s grace. God did not have to offer an escape from our moral guilt and eternal punishment. However, God is gracious. He has a compassion and love for people that is indescribable. God wants to “wipe the slate” clean for us, in regards to our moral failures. Through this action, we could then enter a personal relationship with His son Jesus Christ and escape his eternal judgment. The Bible refers to moral failures as ‘sin’, or missing the mark of God’s perfect standard of morality. “Sin” is an ancient archery term for an arrow that missed the target. God is loving in the purest sense of the word and would like to grant us victory over the sins that still haunt us from our past. All we have to do is accept this gift of grace from Him. It is free.

God promises us a way to become morally blameless and gain entrance into heaven after living our physical live here on Earth. Here is what we must willingly do on our part. First off, we must truly believe that God is gracious and extended His grace by allowing His one and only son to die as a ransom for our sins on the cross. We must admit to God that we have failed morally during our lifetime and that Jesus Christ’s brutal death on the cross is the only sacrifice that could ever forgive our sins. After making this decision (accepting God’s grace), we are immediately forgiven of all past, present, and future sins. In addition, we would be guaranteed entrance into heaven after our physical death here on Earth. We would then live with both God and His son Jesus forever. We would be guaranteed to see all of our loved ones who had made this decision during his or her physical lives on Earth.

You could make this decision today. Please do not wait for the “perfect time”. You could ask God for eternal forgiveness through applying the death and resurrection of Jesus to your life within the quietness of your bedroom tonight. This is the most important decision that you will ever make.

So you might be asking, “Where in the Bible does it explain what has just been summarized?” Here are some passages clearly stating that Jesus seeks a personal relationship with us:

“that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
- Romans 10:9-10

"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; “
- Acts 3:19

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
- John 3:16

As long as you repent of your past sins (moral failures) from the heart, confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and apply Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection on the cross as a payment for your sins, you are guaranteed eternal life with God in heaven. You can make this decision at any time, anywhere. You can make this decision alone with God or within a group setting.

Please know that one cannot sit the fence on making this decision of accepting God’s gift of grace. If one chooses not to decide, he or she has still made a choice. This would be like receiving a check (hearing “The Gospel”) but never endorsing and cashing it in at the bank (personally applying Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection towards one’s sins).

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
- John 3:18

The result of not choosing to accept Gods gift of grace, which offers eternal life with both Him and Jesus in heaven is clear. You will live the remainder of your life here on Earth apart from Jesus Christ and His empowerment. You will then follow your life plan and not His plan for you. After you physically die, you will then be brought to a dark place where there is “weeping and gnashing of teeth”. It is a place of eternal regret. Here, you will remember this very letter and how you were told the truth but chose not to repent and begin a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Remember, if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. You could be diagnosed with a terminal illness tomorrow or be the recipient of a head-on collision while returning home on that all too familiar, two-lane highway this Friday night. If you are considering starting your personal relationship with Jesus Christ, please do not wait to make this decision. You never know what tomorrow will bring.

The following passage outlines the only requirements Jesus Christ has set to both gain eternal life and begin a personal relationship with Him while you are still alive here on Earth. He makes it crystal-clear in the Bible what is required…

“that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
- Romans 10:9-10


God has a plan for your life. You can watch this plan unfold once you accept His gift of grace. This great plan involves your life experience while here on Earth and continues after your physical death on into heaven.

“For I know the plans that I have for you”, declares the Lord, “plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.”
- Jeremiah 29:11-13

Please consider what I have said here. I am not sure if you have ever made this decision before, but I needed to make sure that you had the facts. If you should decide that you want to learn more about the life of Jesus and gain a better understanding of authentic Christianity, I strongly recommend reading the book of John within the Bible (NASB or NIV translation).

In closing, here is a verse that someone once shared with me that finally brought me into a relationship with God during an extremely low point physically and emotionally. The understanding of Jesus’ desire to know me personally changed my life forever. Here it is:

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.”
- Revelation 3:20

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Sexism has gotten over the hand the past coming years.

Richard

It's people like you who make men feel that there is any shame at all in propositioning a women, that make something so natural become awkward,

I think most women would be pleased about being propositioned in many situations and frankly think it doesn't happen enough.


So I am still waiting for this society you feminists promised, It's one of complete equality where in theory I should be propositioned by women.

I'm wondering when you women will "man up" and ask me out...

However I doubt it's going to happen is it, because the reality is that you really are fooling yourself to think men and women even want to be treated the same.

No men want to be the hunter, and women want to be chased, and for lesbians this is often hard to understand as they essentially make their way through the world thinking like a man but being treated like a woman.

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The bottom line here: Knowing God is not about religion, it is all about relationship with Him.

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Brandon

This is a very interesting issue since it is I think at it's core a discussion about the proper context of an unwanted sexual advance more than the sexual advance itself. Is a conference an appropriate place to proposition another person?

A lot of revelry happens at conferences. An attractive young woman at a bar at four in the morning is in a position to receive a proposition. I, as a single man, have delivered simmilar propositions and have had them accepted and rejected. I make one at just about every wedding I attend.

Greta is right in that the proposition that this particular man made was poorly timed and had a low probability of success to say the least. I can only muster sympathy for the poor fellah though. It feels miserable to get shot down. That is the price that a one pays for doing something stupid.

Nothing will ever stop men from trying to have sex with women and failing at it most of the time. I have an honest and humble question for the women of the Atheist community. Do you really want men to stop flirting with you, hitting on you and trying to sleep with you? I ask because for every romantic evening that a man authors for a lady I can almost guarantee that he has said at least three dumb things to three different women to get there. Can you take the good with the bad?

Ernie

Do you really want men to stop flirting with you, hitting on you and trying to sleep with you?

That's a hard question to answer in the abstract. In a world where women felt safe and rape was a thing of the past, the answer would probably be no.

Today it will depend a great deal on the experiences of individuals. I'm sure there are women who would answer on both sides of the question. That's important to understand. If you know that some women will be uncomfortable being hit on and your intentions are honorable (i.e. "I'm attracted to you, I'd like to get to know you better. No is an OK answer"), then you think a bit about how to approach the woman so that she will feel safe and free to say no (or yes). To me that is nothing more than common courtesy (and, for lack of a better word, good "strategy").

I'm sure there are plenty of men whose intentions are honorable and whose social skills aren't fantastic. They'll do bone-headed things – like asking a strange woman up for coffee in an elevator at 4 in the morning – with only the best of intentions. If someone is kind enough to point this out maybe the next time he'll try "hey, I really liked what you said on the panel" in a public place. It might work better.

Guys, let's face it, lots and lots of women get raped (close to 50% of my women friends in college had been raped – and that's only counting the ones who told me about it). Mostly it's done by men. So it is not unreasonable for a women to worry about this.

So I'd like to propose a different question: do you want women to feel comfortable when you flirt / hit on / try to sleep with them?

If you do, start by respecting that men do rape and do coerce sex (even if you never would and don't even know anybody who isn't an ardent feminist). Be an ally, let people know that rape is real and that a woman (or man) always has the right to say no. Act like you see the person, not just the body. Do the things you can think of to make the situation safe – and listen if she tells you what feels uncomfortable or disrespectful.

Sunshine Coast Bookkeeper

I don't find it offensive in tackling this kind of topic. I have liberal way of thinking so I appreciate the admin for bringing up this issue. I hope we should learn how to respect each other so that we can exchange ideas better.

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