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...and how do believers reconcile "Free Will" with "God has a plan"? If God has a plan, and everything is a part of that plan, and God knows all, how is that anything resembling free will? Either Destiny or The Future Is Yet To Be Written - not both.


I went looking for god on the internet and all I got was a 404.


Brilliant post. Sent it to a religious friend, and discussing it now.


@cag: did you try


I discovered your blog through Hemant's some time last week, and I'm loving it more every day. Occam's Razor at its finest: If god exists, why does the world behave exactly as if he/she/it didn't? Why has there never been any provable evidence for anything supernatural? Because there ISN'T anything supernatural. But there's still everything in the world, hell, the universe, and that's more than enough for me. That's the thing that really helped me let go of god in the end: I still get beer and cheesecake. :)


Yeah, and when these same "God can't let his existence be known because Free Will" used to talk to me and my mom back when I still believed in psychics and new age woo, this argument doesn't count for squat. When someone who has a different supernatural belief says "I believe in God too", they reply, "Well, so does the Devil, sinner, and he's in Hell!"

All apologetics involve a hefty amount of goalpost-shifting depending on what's being debated. This "free will" crap is their way of trying to deflect Problem of Evil arguments and Why Is God Hiding arguments, but it's amazing how quickly they forget about free will when another aspect of belief comes up, and next thing you know it's suddenly possible to have absolute knowledge of God's existence while rejecting him (Devil).


Loved this piece of plain speaking, it really put together the way I thought more succinctly than I could.
I also agree with Justduckys comment
and I also hate when anyone says 'nobody knows his plan'. Also 'God is testing you, he won't give you more than you can bear'!! That sounds very evil to me, not comforting or supportive at all.


If it would eradicate my free will for God to make his existence obvious to me... why doesn't it eradicate yours?

Maybe it does. Maybe that's the reason they do and say so many weird things. Once god has revealed himself to you, you no longer have free will. You become an automaton, a slave to the divine will. You cease being human.


God still loves you


This article supposes God never revealed His self in a physical form. Because they expect grandiosity and not humility in what they would need to "see/believe" the image of God, they cannot accept that Jesus is the divination of the Creator revealed to us. Jesus said he was, "the way the truth and the light." and "Who ever believes in me shall have eternal life." He also is quoted as saying, when asked directly, "I am in Him and He is in me" Just like today, many ccouldn't accept this humble idea of God, and so rejected and killed Him as Jewish law demanded they did of a blasphemer (which they believed him to be-also Jesus understood this consequence but still declared this); But while seemingly defeated and while dying on the cross, a fellow criminal asked for forgiveness and asked for Jesus to give him salvation, to which Jesus declared, "This very day you will be with me in paradise." Many of the Jews were looking for a Messiah/savior/King that would be a great military might and defeat their enemies, Jesus certainly didn't fit their image of the Messiah. Then as now, it would be criminal and the worst behavior for a Jew to point to a human being to declare himself to be God. For Jesus or any of his followers, and His mother to promote the idea of Jesus as the Messiah (in their mindset as religious Jews) would be the sin that would destroy their own selves for all eternity. Pretty big stakes for one who wa raised to believe in the Jewish God. It would have been thought of as the most heinous crime among Jews if it were not true. These mostly devout Jews, not only promoted the idea, but would allow themselves to be arrested and often beaten, stoned, also crucified and ostracized from society and be fed to the lions rather than declare it a lie. How could so many be so willing to put all that at risk? And for a "dead" guy? Parents would allow their children to die, rather than declare Jesus and the Spirit they received, a lie. It is illogical unless they witnessed God and His truth revealed in Jesus. Those who never will believe, who reject God completely are choosing for themselves an eternal life outside of God's presence. It is simple. If you are comfortable in that, it is your free will, as is mine to believe in the salvation God offers all, and TRIED to show us in a tangible way. In any event, the fact that there is a deep search for the truth is very good. All of us who did grapple with the q before we humbled ourselves enough to say something like, "Spirit of God Enter my heart". God was then discovered in a very real way. Ask the Lord and Savior to open your heart and enter. Say this "in Jesus' name". Then actually allow a small crack in the wall of resistance that you have built, for the spirit to enter. do this with sincerity and then you will understand why non-believers turn into believers and are so passionate about the reality of the spirit of God. Anyway, if you do this with a true opening in your heart, and nothing happens, the most you have to lose is nothing. So what are you afraid of?

Greta Christina

Rose: What evidence do you have for any of this?

There is serious question as to whether the historical Jesus even existed... much less whether any of the events of his life and his followers were accurately described in the Bible. More on this:

Choking on the Camel
The historical evidence for Jesus

As for the argument that nobody would ever hold a dangerous religious belief unless it were true... that is patently absurd. If we accepted that argument, then the followers of Jim Jones or the Heaven's Gate cult must have been right as well.

And the "open your heart" argument is terrible. You're basically asking people to bias themselves in favor of a conclusion before they decide on the evidence for it. But in fact, most atheists were once believers. We weren't just open to the possibility that religion might be right -- we actually believed it. It was only after we considered the poor logic and evidence supporting it that we reconsidered, and left our belief.


God does not play hide and seek;

He makes Him clearly known through the precise "Mathematics" He has wonderfully executed, when creating the Universe, and His own Word;

This is what has genuinely been promised by all His great Prophets: Moses, Jesus, David, Muhammad, for this Last and Third Day/Millennium now;

So if we open our eyes now, and see Him clearly through this matcless empirical "Mathematic Evidence" that He has wonderfully executed, within His Universe, and within His Word, now,
we shall also get all the answers to all those questions above in His "Mathematically Proven" matcless "Excellent Word" now, and we will also see Him Personally, thereafter, when the Time comes.


One of the mysteries of woo, that I've often pondered, is its fear of paragraphs, and its love of random capitalization...


Maria: also, punctuation.

This also makes me think of Dr. House's statement from last week's episode (paraphrased from memory): "If you're punished, it's proof god exists. If you're not punished, it's also proof god exists." Or "math works, therefore jesus". Of course, whenever things (seemingly) don't work as "math" (or "science") says, then it's "math doesn't work, therefore jesus". Heads I win, tails you lose...


It's not so complex and not difficult;
If you go and carefully take a look at that
matcless "Mathematical Calculations & Designs"
in that excellent and superb "WORD of one and only true GOD" now;
which has also thus been unmistakably prophesied and promised
by Moses 5000 years ago,
by Jesus 2000 years ago,
by Muhammad 1400 years ago,

and then if you can produce and bring anything like that (you can seek help from whomever you want on this planet, or in the Universe, or Universes,
then Godlessness win;
but if you cannot do this, then the one and only true GOD of Moses, Jesus, David, Muhammad
--who thus created this Universe and this Word by His excellent and matchless Mathematic Intelligence and precise superb Powers, from the very beginning--
Is it fair enough now?


Mmmm, word salad. So delicious!


Good evening:
Um, I agree with "themann1086." I'm sorry - I'm a fair poker player, but - what?
From what I'm reading, you have committed a genetic fallacy by your synthetic integration of Judaism, Christianity and Islam - which by the way, are not the same thing and are not saying the same thing. Religious relativism is not very hard to refute.
On the other hand, if I understand you correctly, you are invoking the mathematical impossibilities of prophecies as fulfilled in the Bible by mere human beings.
Interesting. Never heard it put quite that way - if I understand correctly.
Thank you


Ancient rationalist prophecy foretells that devout believers will signal their sharp departure from reality by foregoing paragraph breaks.

Thus believers will be known by this idiosyncratic writing style, and will be forever marked as faith-driven creatures bereft of reason.

So it was told, and so it is demonstrated.


For Locutus7;

1. All who fail to make paragraph breaks are bereft of reason.
2. Only believers fore-go paragraph breaks.
3. Therefore believers are bereft of reason.

Well, O.K., the argument may be logically valid, but I question if it is sound.

Good argument - keep up the hypo-collaborative correlation of your quasi-relevant but egregious reciprocity addressing your despondency concerning concurrent semantic post-structural distillations in relation to the concomitant value of your equivocally differentiating allegations in reference to the relation to your accusations of pseudo-semantic homogeneity para-oscillating from your scabrous diatribe in an attempt to appeal to a quantitative locus masquerading as hyper-qualitative hubris in the name of erudite pedagogy.

Just thinking...

Tim Anderson

God never shows up because he's always watching DirectTV


Um, the New Testament Book of Romans has already answered your question.

Now, before I begin, just because someone may not like the answer; (and just because most Christians may not like the answer) does not negate the answer which is given.

The answer will most assuredly play into a person's view on "justice", but regardless, it is a very definitive and concrete answer specifically addressing your question.

Romans 9:10-24 states:

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.
-end quote-
So why you ask does God play hide and seek? Well, as Romans states, because some people are destined for wrath, which all men deserve, yet not all men will face, and not because of anything good in themselves, but simply because of undeserved mercy shown towards them.

Someone might not like this answer, but it specifically answers your question very clearly and directly. And to wit: it is an answer straight from what Christians claim are the very words of God.


Jesse Weinstein


Thanks for digging up the Bible quote. However, the general point was made in Greta's original post: "If that's the god you believe in... then with all due respect, your god is a capricious, sadistic jerk, who plays a cruel game of hide and seek with his most beloved creation, and then punishes us with intolerable, permanent torture when we lose. In which case, the only moral choice would be to reject him."

So, yes, that quote is good justification for not worshiping or respecting the evil entity described in Romans.

But it does nothing to justify the claim that the entity exists. And, as shown in various other posts on this very site, there is considerable evidence against its existence.

Which is convenient, as it frees all of us up to deal with the many real problems in the real world.


Free will is an illusion, and recent neuroscience has shown this. Understanding how this is so within yourself, solves the free will "paradox." Do something that quiets that left-brain, analytical identity and learn to listen to your mind and you'll realize this entire article is based on a limited and false understanding of reality. A left-brained, rational analysis of the possibility of the existence of God always leads to atheism. A more accurate understanding of your own reality leads to realizing that atheism is a construct which is erected by people who have the majority of their consciousness unavailable to them. Self-awareness is the key, don't take my word for it.


After enough struggles and research I've come to the conclusion that it's because it has to do with our thoughts and lack of knowledge in dealing with them.

When it comes to God the majority of us expects and often demands him to set up that perfect empire for us that goes against the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

We are made out of energy and so are our thoughts which have to exist somehow in a higher frequency we do not yet understand.

(There is a lot of fringe knowledge being kept from us in various dogma groups because if we knew too much they would not have power over people)

It is likely the reason why Atheists do not see or hear God is because they are not seeking him thus they are lost in the material world of lust and personal indulgence.

It doesn't matter if you go 2 church or not but as long as your heart is seeking God will show himself in various ways but Atheists want to burn down churches and pee on pictures of Jesus instead.

(True stories and it doesn't end there sadly )

If you wish for God to be a perfect empire/utopia that will never fall you have the freedom to create that vision BUT since your vision is out of alignment with reality the 2nd law of thermodynamics will kick in with every effort you make.

Then it will seem no matter how you put into it your little empire/utopia falls apart regardless if it's an empire or religion or science.

Raise taxes to make/fun new programs?

Sure that will work for a little while but people will rebel against you if it's unjust and screws enough businesses

Make crimes against hate speech? Sure that will work for a little until every little word is a crime and more people are put in jail/fined then the law is actually solving.

Justice law's should only be a last resort where a solution can be absolute like crime against property or rape which even then women often over use the word making the situation worse then it is.

People who actually murder others get light sentences while petty crimes get harsher and harsher punishments to be made an example of.

You know I am not even going to try to understand this madness as madness is not understandable.

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