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« Atheist Meme of the Day: Religion Has No Right to Special Respect | Main | Atheist Meme of the Day: Criticizing Ideas /= Attacking People »

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Erikswanson

I will preface this by saying that I don't mean to be unkind or unfair. But have you noticed the similarities between the respect for one's sexual limist and the respect for one's faith?

After all, what rational reason can theis girl have for refusing to let her boyfriend finger her? We all know that sex is a good enjoyable thing. Indeed, many would say that her current sexual relationship is one-sided, the guy gets all the pleasure while she sits there unfulfilled!

And like the boyfriend, you suggest in your blowfish blog that no is not a good enough reason. You even suggest that it's also OK to ask why.

Because, after all, if it's just because someone has some kinf of uptight religious problem, that's not reality. Just because it says in the bible that adulery is wrong, it doesn't mean it isn't hot!

What would be a good enough reason to say no? What would justify it, logically? I read your alternet post on faith, and I understand that you don't buy into the idea that without justification, an action cannot be defended.

So I ask you: when is it OK to say no, and why? What's the reason?

How can one be skeptical about religious beliefs and not sexual ones? If we say to the believer that their decision to not abort a baby is irrational, what about the non-believer who makes the same choice because they "don't want to?"

Why is it OK to refuse anal sex when you know (if done properly) that it isn't harmful? Or any sex?

Or, especially, fingering. What girl wouldn't love the feeling of fingers slipping up inside her. Wouldn't a loving boyfriend point out the errors in her refusal? Wouldn't he guide her to the ecstacy he knows he can bring her if her irrationality weren't getting in the way?

It seems to me that refusal to give into sexual pleasure is the same as refusing to give in to scientific facts. When you wouldn't let your boyfriend spank you, you were being irrational. You see the error of your ways now.

Why let others continue to make the saem errors?

considertheteacosy

Erikswanson- sorry but I find your comment disturbing, at best. Are you really, REALLY saying that a person does not have the right to decide what happens with their own body? That they do not have the right to bodily integrity?

These:

"When you wouldn't let your boyfriend spank you, you were being irrational. You see the error of your ways now."
"Wouldn't a loving boyfriend point out the errors in her refusal? Wouldn't he guide her to the ecstacy he knows he can bring her if her irrationality weren't getting in the way?"

I would like to be calm and logical about this. But since that is entirely inappropriate, WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK? There is NOTHING irrational about not wanting a particular act, or about not being comfortable with one. It is one thing deciding, freely, to engage in an act which your partner is likely to be more interested in than you are. It is another thing ENTIRELY to suggest that not being interested in any sexual act is irrationality.

Also:

"refusal to give into sexual pleasure is the same as refusing to give in to scientific facts"

We do not give in to either sexual pleasure or scientific facts. We freely and consensually share sexual pleasures with those who desire to share these with us. Pleasure is subjective. Scientific facts are not.

Also, again- what the fucking fuck?!?

Indigo

So basically, Erikswanson, refusing to "respect" someone's assertion that the earth is less than 10000 years old...or that it's okay to treat certain people badly because they were born into a certain caste...or that human consiousness ends at death...or that gay sex is evil...is the moral equivalent of raping them. Because saying, "No, I think that's wrong, because..." is totes the same as forcing yourself on them.
You'll forgive me, I hope, for not finding this argument intuitively convincing.

Greta Christina

Erikswanson: I will preface this by saying that I don't mean to be unkind or unfair.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Are you high? Have you completely lost your mind? Or have you simply lost your moral compass?

Let me spell this out very clearly: Liking or disliking a particular kind of sex is a personal, subjective preference. It is not a question of what is or is lot literally true in the real, external, objective world (the way religion is). If someone says that they don't like being fingered, then they don't like being fingered. If it's true for them, then it's true. End of story.

And -- much more to the point -- if they don't like being fingered, they have the right to not be fingered. Absolute end of story. Even if they're mistaken about whether they want to be fingered (as I was mistaken about wanting to be spanked): So fucking what? The right to sexual self-determination, the right to say No to any kind of sex, is absolutely crucial to sexual morality. If my partner had gone ahead and spanked me even though I'd said No -- do you honestly think this would have convinced me that spanking was okay? Do you honestly not realize that this would have been a traumatic horror? Even if he hadn't forced it on me -- even if he'd just pressured me incessantly about it -- do you think that would have made me see the rational truth? About, you know, my own, personal, entirely subjective desires and fears?

When is it okay to say No? Do I really have to answer that question? It is extremely depressing to think that I might. But apparently I do. The answer: Always. It is always -- ALWAYS -- okay to say No: to any particular kind of sex, or to sex in general. Period. Absolute fucking end of story.

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