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NewEnglandBob

No, it is still Ho freaking hum. Wake me when something remotely unusual happens.

Half the world is kinky, the other half wants to be.

Mike Wagner

What I'd love to see is Woods take a stand for himself. Sure, he should have some guilt for cheating on his partner, but I want to see him stand up and say "My mistake isn't in engaging in sex with multiple partners, or desiring to engage in fantasy play or kinky sex. My mistake is in not taking the stand to say that it's natural for me to desire more than one partner, to have to hide the fact that I am a normal, sexual person. My mistake is in attempting to conform to the social conventions that other people place on me, when I could be open and engage in consensual acts with other adults that hurt no one. And fuck your judgment."

That would earn my respect. :)

Tommy

I'm confused. How do kinky text messages then lead to Tiger having the sort of underlying marital relationship that would excuse infidelity?

Maybe it's well known that his marriage is like that. I have no idea. I didn't even know about the text messages until Greta mentioned them.

But part of the post seems to assuming underlying justification based on Tiger's kinks, not on any evidence of the justifications.

cathy

I just can't help but think that no one (except for actually involved parties) would be concerned and upset about these affairs if he was a white dude, or if his wife weren't white. Famous white dudes sleep around all the time, but somehow when a famous black guy (viewed by others as black, he is mostly Asian and identifies as multiracial) does the same, he's a dangerous sex addict. This whole scandal to me just screams 'Oh noes, that black guy is fucking not just one, but lots of white women, he must be one of those over sexed black peoples'

ToppHogg

Reading these text messages tells me a lot about the Woods' relationship and why he went outside for gratification. I'm sure that Elin is very vanilla when it comes to kinky stuff, especially since it wouldn't match up with the self-image she had to have developed as a very pretty woman who could attract horndogs at a cemetery. The princess wouldn't have wanted to play the cheap slut like Tiger apparently wants. So he gets to deal with the classic male dilemma: I married the wrong woman for meeting my sexual needs. How do I deal with this?

This isn't seen as a justifiable reason for divorce, so he is left with one of two choices: do without, or go outside. Few of us have the options he had to exercise his kinks without the wife finding out, and if he had been more careful about his activities, he could have gone for years without anyone having a clue. Bob Hope reportedly strayed constantly until he couldn't get it up anymore. Woods could have as well, but he got sloppy due to the fact that he's an overgrown kid in the candy store with no sense . . . well, of much of anything. For this I have little sympathy for him.

He's now given all the power in his life to his wife who will never forgive him no matter what she might say, and will take very opportunity to stick him publicly that she can. She has the sympathy of the majority of the world's women, after all. He will never again know peace even if he divorces her. Way to go, chump!

Greta Christina
I'm sure that Elin is very vanilla when it comes to kinky stuff, especially since it wouldn't match up with the self-image she had to have developed as a very pretty woman who could attract horndogs at a cemetery. The princess wouldn't have wanted to play the cheap slut like Tiger apparently wants.

ToppHogg, with all due respect: How do you know that? I've known plenty of conventionally pretty women who are bottoms/ masochists/ subs (or switches) in the SM scene, and who love to play the cheap slut.

If I've learned anything in my years as a sex writer and sex activist, it's that you can't assume anything about people's private sexual desires based solely on their public persona. In fact, people's public personas are often in strong contrast with their private sexualities: hence, the powerful business executives who hire professional dominatrixes, who are so common it's become a cliche. People often seek in their fantasy or sex life exactly what they don't have in their regular life.

Unless she chooses to disclose it, I don't think we have any idea what Elin's sexuality is. I think it's likely that she isn't kinky, if only because most people aren't. But assuming that she isn't kinky because her public persona is that of a beautiful blond princess is not backed up by reality.

Tommy

"you can't assume anything about people's private sexual desires based solely on their public persona"

But we can from their text messages? (I mean, aside from the obvious that they enjoy sending that sort of text message.)

Greta Christina
But we can from their text messages?

I think we can assume from the text messages that he likes to engage in the sexual activities proposed and negotiated in those messages.

Tommy

All I can derived from those text messages is that he likes to talk about such things in text messages.

I think it's a big leap to then say:

1) He indulges in the same practices.
2) His wife won't. (Which you agree with, above.)

I'm taking this much more seriously then I should. But it just seems that all I would have to do to get away with cheating in your eyes is to send really kinky text messages to someone else.

I'd say that's a pretty low bar.

Nancy

When I saw the story re: these text messages, I said to myself, 'AAhhh, now I get it".

This just happens to be his kink and, either he figured it out AFTER his marriage (doubt it) or he was unable to share his kink w/ Elin (more than likely this is the case).

I read the text messages to my husband and, we looked at each other, and starting laughing. My husband uses the EXACT language during our playtime and I love it. (Also, I've thrown some language back at him that would make for interesting sexting.)

Most people just don't get this type of kink. No one in my "circle" (friends OR family) with whom I've been able to discuss this with, understands it's appeal. In fact, my sister thinks I'm a "pig".

So, I've learned to keep it to myself. But, sometimes, at family gatherings, I look at my sister and go "oink oink". She laughs.

Tiger will have to go on w/out Elin most likely. Too much damage has been done. But, I sure hope his "rehab" (haha) helps him understand and embrace his kink and seek out like-minded kinky partners.

I am freakyzenlady and Tiger can call me any time he wants (after his divorce). My husband and I will be more than happy to guide him in his kinky endeavors which......just happens to be another one of our personal kinks.

Greta Christina

Tommy: I suppose it's hypothetically possible that Tiger Woods just enjoys sending kinky text messages, and doesn't actually engage in the kinky sex practices he was texting about. But that doesn't seem very likely. Especially given the context of the other messages. The other messages were mostly about negotiation: negotiating times, places, where envelopes could be found (presumably of cash, although I don't know that for sure), etc. Given that, it seems that my hypothesis -- that he actually engages in the practices they were texting about -- seems far more plausible than yours.

And nowhere did I say that in my eyes he had gotten away with it. In fact, I explicitly said that I wasn't letting him off the hook. I said that I had compassion for him, and that it seemed like he was in a difficult situation in which no choice would be a good one. I said that he seemed like someone "with a complicated sex life, who's made some fucked-up but understandable choices about it." That's not the same as letting him get away with it.

Tommy

Oh, okay. I didn't know there were more details supporting your hypothesis.

Alice in Wonderland

For the first few days after the original story broke, when I didn't know any details at all but was seeing various references around LJ and such to Tiger Woods "cheating," I assumed he'd been caught cheating at golf. I was appalled! (To the extent that I cared at all, which was not very much, because sports, meh.)

Then I found out he'd cheated on his wife, and I was really puzzled about why there's all this media attention. Isn't spousal cheating kind of, um, common? And also really nobody's business but the people involved?

So, I'll be over here, failing to understand pop culture.

ToppHogg

@ Greta Christina | April 08, 2010 at 11:55 AM

If it please the court:

The longer I live and experience, the more I think that Katharine Hepburn had it correct regarding inter-gender relationships. She believed that men and women should not live together, but should be close neighbors and visit often. But I need to address your complaint, not start a new thread.

As my name is not Woods, I cannot "know" anything about their relationship. I can only interpolate what I have read in the media with the experiences I have had in life, combined with what I have been told by friends about their relationships. What I offer above, to your disapproving eye, is an opinion based on that experience. By definition, an opinion cannot be fact. It cannot be "known". I thus plead, Your Ownership, not guilty to the charge of knowing the unknowable.

What I have concluded from all this observational data crunching over the years of my life is this: Unless a guy is a real stud, or famous and crazy wealthy, women don't have to work very hard to keep a guy. In fact, if they don't have to work very hard at keeping a guy for an extended period, they begin to assume that they are never going to have to. Add in the fact that too many women dump their sire overboard once they become mothers and are finished having children, and it isn't at all difficult to see that the prospects for a nearly sexless marriage at the Woods compound are excellent. IF I am correct, I thus fully understand Tiger's interest in outside women.

I also happen to believe that Tiger wants his wife to again be his lover. It would explain why so many of his mistresses look something like Elin. Now let's add in his "stupid" mistakes of inviting his next door neighbor's daughter to sample his wares under his own roof, and using his personal cell phone to maintain contact with his women, and leaving it out where his wife could peruse it, it's my opinion that Tiger wanted to get caught by her. It was a sorry way of making an attempt to bring the relationship back to where it once was, something it can never again be. "I was bad, Elin! Spank me if you must, but come back to me! Be my lover like you were before you became the mother of my children!" He has to be desperate, and wants to find a way to incorporate his kinks into this desired relationship. We know he's a bit kinky, after all. We suspect he wants his wife and lover back.

Few of us have the looks or the lucre to pull off Tiger's escapades. We end up living quiet lives of desperate sexual deprivation because we have become the lowest priority in our partner's lives and aren't likely to attract a replacement. After all, thanks to "no fault" divorce and child support taking what little discretionary income exists, and struggling against a lifetime of programming, while females are young and impressionable, to hold out for the ring, the mortgage, and the license before putting out, just where are we men going to go for comfort and understanding? And what self-respecting (and properly propagandized) woman wants a married man anyway? What would her mother say!

So yes, I believe what I wrote above, and for the reasons that I here declare.

Your witness, Madam Counsel.

Demonhype

Well, no matter the kinks, it was the usual "celebrity cheated on his wife" story. Which for me is no more horrifying or shocking than the guy down the street doing the same thing. People get so worked up about the private lives of celebrities. It's like they try to convince themselves that these famous people are their friends. For me, it has the same effect whether it is Bill from down the street or Brad Pitt.

But the points about kinkiness resonated with me personally. While it's impossible to totally know what the situation is inside Tiger's life or his head, it's an interesting idea. And that is why I started coming here for the atheism and stayed for the sex writing--when that has never brought me in before. I have been kinky since as long as I can remember and I have always internalized it as perverted and dirty--more so than just sexual desire--and, of course, internalized some part of my own identity as perverted and dirty by relation. Since reading your site, I've come to reevaluate these feelings and I've begun to feel less ashamed of myself--not that I'm making it public, of course! But it's nice not to be pursuing an idea that has become a part of my sexual identity while hating myself and feeling there is something wrong with me, and reading your theories on the Tiger situation have made me appreciative of the fact that I'm coming to terms with these feelings before I secure any partners. It must be terrible and frustrating to tie yourself to someone--even someone you love--and then discover some aspect of your sexual identity that you can't gratify with that person for whatever reason.

Of course, it doesnt' really make it that much easier to find a suitable partner. My own concern is that a girl who "comes out" as kinky at the wrong time might get into some real trouble--I won't elaborate, since I'm pretty sure that's self-explanatory.

And I could easily see someone who is happily married but doesn't want to try to include his wife in it. Perhaps he's afraid that his non-kinky wife might not look at him "right" ever again or that it might be something that could jeapordize his marriage. I don't know if this is Tiger's situation, but I could see it happening to someone.

Greta Christina

ToppHogg:

Unless a guy is a real stud, or famous and crazy wealthy, women don't have to work very hard to keep a guy. In fact, if they don't have to work very hard at keeping a guy for an extended period, they begin to assume that they are never going to have to.

First of all: Not all women are like that. Are some women like that? I have no doubt. But not all women, or even most. I have known many, many, many women in my life in relationships with men -- and I can't think of one who has fit that description. The women I have known -- including friends, relatives, colleagues, and more -- have worked very hard indeed at their relationships with men. (And they're not particularly interested in either studs or the famous and crazy wealthy.)

And now I'm going to get harsh.

That is not only an inaccurate assessment of women -- it is an unbelievably sexist and insulting one, and I'm frankly shocked to read it from a regular reader of my blog. The next time you're tempted to say "All women are like (X)," I strongly suggest that you think very, very carefully about whether you really want to say it. If you wouldn't say "All black people are (X)" or "All Jews are (X)" or "All gay people are (X)", perhaps you ought to think twice about saying "All women are (X)." (Even with the "Hey, this is just my experience" caveats -- which is just a way of avoiding being held accountable for profoundly messed-up ideas.)

In my experience, when I start seeing a pattern in my life like, "All men are self-involved and weak-willed with drug or alcohol problems," or, "All women are drama queens who create unnecessary conflict as a way of focusing attention on themselves," (both patterns I experienced for a long time), it's a lot more useful to look at what I might be doing to draw this kind of person into my life. Laying the blame at the feet of the gender (or some other group) has just been a way of avoiding responsibility for the ways that I've contributed to the situation... and a way of avoiding having to take action about it. When I stopped saying, "All men are weak-willed and self-involved," and started saying, "What am I doing that I've consistently had so many weak-willed, self-involved men in my life?", my life and my relationships with men got a whole lot better.

I understand from previous comments you've made that you're in a bad relationship. And I have compassion for that. But as I said to another commenter in another discussion: If you're determined to see these as universal problems of gender destiny that therefore can never be solved, as opposed to particular (albeit not unheard of) problems that you need to make choices about, there's not going to be much anyone can say or do that will help.

And if you continue to make sexist and insulting generalizations about how all women are lazy golddiggers who don't care about men once they've gotten what they want out of them, you're going to lose my compassion. Fast.

Azkyroth
The next time you're tempted to say "All women are like (X)," I strongly suggest that you think very, very carefully about whether you really want to say it. If you wouldn't say "All black people are (X)" or "All Jews are (X)" or "All gay people are (X)", perhaps you ought to think twice about saying "All women are (X)."

I certainly wouldn't say "all black people have a self-concept that has a vagina," whereas I would be inclined to say that of "women." I get your point though.

Topphogg, thanks for demonstrating that it's possible to "prove" anything by analyzing a non-random sample of one. (If you derived that opinion from more than one dysfunctional relationship and/or acrimonious divorce to which you were a party, that just underscores the probability that the root problem is you).

I can certainly see some of the attitudes you describe in my (still, on paper) wife. I find they are entirely ascribable to untreated mental illness and a really epically shitty upbringing, not to some universal characteristic of women. I doubt they're even universal in women who are also alcoholic pathological liars and match every major diagnostic trait of Borderline Personality Disorder, though I'm sure the percentage is much higher.

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But we can from their text messages?

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